Spellcasting Shenanigans

So how much structure would a physical barrier spell need to have to support the weight of your average GMC Bulldog loaded with passengers and drones.

It occurred to this guy I know that while Levitate isn't very fast, a physical barrier used as a ramp and bridge over obstacles would not slow the van much at all.

Uh... asking for a friend...

Like driving over bridges that are autocreated ala Fortnite??

Never tried Fortnite, but I'm guessing yes.

At 14 dice, I can average a armor and structure rating between 4 and 5.  I'd not even think about it with a lighter vehicle.

Not sure of the exact dimensions of the van, but I'm guessing a 6 by 12 meter platform can hold it, and I could conceivably create two or more.  even just one is probably enough to get over a car sized obstacle, and theres nothing in the spell about how much weight it could hold beyond the kind of damage putting weight on it would cause. 

Another issue is traction.  It's a wall of energy and I'd bet it's considered at least 'slippery'.  Honestly from a physics standpoint I'm betting these are incredible fun to play with.  I could easily see it as being a nearly frictionless surface.  The potential is pure fun on a lot of levels, if you were the kind of guy that enjoys designing water slides or something.

I am not sure. I will have to do some research and get back to you. The spell lets you make a barrier that has a structure and armor rating equal to your hits. I would think that for a car to drive over it, it would need a structural rating equivalent to "structural material" such as brick or plascrete. That has a structure rating of 10. For comparison a structure rating of 4-5 would be "average material" with listed examples including furniture, plastiboard, and ballistic glass. I wouldn't think a sofa would stand up under the weight of a big armored van. (there's a chart of barrier ratings on p 197 of the core book)

With some edge and liberal use of reagents you can possibly get a wall strong enough to drive over as a bridge, but the physical barrier doesn't make a super huge wall. Only force x2 meters square. Let's say you skipped the reagents and made a force 10 one, that's a 20 meter square ramp/bridge. That will get you over a few cars, but there are more cars after that.

As for the friction issue, the spell says it is a force field so we could rule it one of two ways. I don't really care which so long as we remain consistent with it. The first is to make it like trying to push two strong magnets of the same pole together where it just gets harder and harder to push through until you eventually are either repelled by or overwhelm it. In this case, the wheels wouldn't have anything to grab onto, they would just be spinning in air once inertia from the initial ramping up it ran out and then it would just slide back.

Alternately we say it is a solid surface and leave it at that. A vehicle would drive up it the same as driving on the pavement.

I am fine with either interpretation. Both have their own consequences to it. I would lean toward the latter simply because the spell is called "physical barrier" which implies there is something solid to touch, even if the actual spell description is more vague on the matter.

I can live with structure of 10.  I'd probably bleed trying to cast something that stout, but I'm picking up a van.  Maybe a roll for a little lesser structure?  Generally speaking whatever stuff is made of is many times stronger than is strictly necessary.  Consider the same road that is holding us is also made to hold several more just like us, on up to rigs much bigger.

Honestly even if we go with there being a tangible surface, I'd still demand a test, if I were a GM,  because it's going to be like glass or something that is *very* smooth.  You may not fly off it, but if you don't hit it straight and ride it true you are done, like hitting a patch of ice.

The spell does not say much about shaping what you get.  Force x2 Long by Force High, or a ball with a radius of Force.  I'm taking a bit of a liberty by assuming I can flip that flat and use it as a ramp at all, and am assuming at least part of it has to be touching the ground.

The spell also does not mention a thickness.  We won't discuss what happens if you put that thing edge on toward someone who is moving.  Might make Monowire look dull...

Yeah, I had thought of the being able to turn it or not since it says height and length rather than giving two dimensions, but I rather like the versatility of potentially using it as a bridge (albeit more usefully so for people than vehicles), so I don't mind it much. As for the thickness, I would just say it's about a foot and leave it at that. Even if I didn't allow you to tilt it, someone could still run into it from the side and if we start saying it's like monowire, then that leaves it open to be cast on someone offensively to split them in half or whatever which is way beyond the power that the spell really should have.

At any force though, putting it in front of a moving vehicle will involve having to do enough damage to get through it's barrier rating (a vehicle's ramming damage is based on its current speed and body) and possibly a crash test. Though at low forces that wall isn't going to be much of an impedance.

Yeah, I would not bother with most vehicles. Chest high to a biker though? Even Force 1 would hurt.

Not to argue, as I'm good with pretty much anything so long as we are consistent about it.

On Page 282 there is a sidebar on the difference between Physical and Mana Spells.  (I can't figure out how to do the cool snippets of the book the way you do)

The Gist is that a spell listed as Type P, or Physical, can affect both living and non-living targets in the physical world.  It cannot affect astral bodies.

Mana Spells can affect Living Targets or astrally active targets like spirits or foci, on either the physical plane or the astral plane, so long as caster and target are both active on the same plane.

According to RAW, Powerbolt should not work on an astral body as it is a physical spell.  I'm fine if you want to make it an exception, since it seems like it would be a bad precedent to allow things like Lightning Bolt to act the same way.

On the other hand, it also re-opens the possibility from early editions of spells 'grounding', as for instance if I were to toss an area physical spell from astral space at a dual natured target (for instance an astral perceiving biker).

No idea what grounding is, but I seem to have made a mistake in that I thought you could cast spells into just the astral plane while perceiving. I reread the section on astral combat and apparently my brain skipped out the part where it says MANA spells. So my bad. She does have both spells though, so the end result is the same, even down to the amount of drain and the attribute you would resist with. Which is kind of weird as I always thought manabolt had less drain than powerbolt.

Your spell resistance dice did a good job though so it's only 1 physical damage. Once you get the chance to sit down and patch yourselves up, that'll go away easily.

Grounding was from the first few editions, and it was why you don't keep foci and quickened spells active.

This is how it worked:  From Astral Space you can cast at any target that is astrally active.  Dual natured things, including active foci, spells quickened onto physical targets, astrally perceiving individuals or manifested spirits are viable targets from astral space, and provide a path for magic to 'ground' to the physical world.  Casting a Physical spell at a dual natured target would result in the spell manifesting on the physical plane.

If you are being mischevious, you can just cause foci or quickened spells to shut down---they don't resist real hard.  Worst case your spirit has to deal with an extra dude, or perhaps you are having to concentrate on them---much as the biker needs to either stop perceiving astrally or keep taking stun bolts from me.

The Real fun came from casting area physical spells on dual natured targets.  So you aren't paying attention to astral space and suddenly one of your foci erupts into a huge Fireball.  Similarly you could do something goofy like summon Force 1 spirits, command them to manifest, and smack them with the fireball... leaving your opposition very little they can do about it, especially if the team lacked a full magician for astral threats.

They kind of put the kibosh on this, and introduced Foci Addiction as a way of limiting people using foci.  I'm personally a little torn...  Grounding was harsh... but it did it's job pretty well.

So it basically was a weird way for astral spells to bleed into the physical and vice versa?

It was part of the difference between a Physical and Mana spell, and it didn't work in the other direction.

You could not throw a Manaball at a dual natured target and have it ground, it had to be physical.

It was wonderful for inducing paranoia about having active foci.  You kept your foci off till needed, or masked, or both.  You made sure you had astral backup...  for instance summoning a spirit and keeping it with you.  Awareness of the astral plane was important all the time, and vital if you had manifested spirits or foci around.

Lol. Well, I am fine without it. There is enough stuff to be paranoid about without wondering if your foci are going to explode on you.

2nd edition really had the why and wherefore of magic down.  It was the last edition to have ritual sorcery in the core book until 5th.  On the whole there was an underlying vision to how things were supposed to work that made it very intuitive as to what was allowed and how to do it in the system.

You don't need grounding, for sure.  Foci Addiction puts a hard mechanical cap on the same issue.

Can I not see the astral forms of the active spells?

I assume Torpor is under the affect of a control thoughts. So far it's cool because I have no actions to deal with that, but I should be able to see it. If I had realized he was being affected by a spell I'd have given him the other 3 spell defense dice.

From the description she tossed a spell that may have failed. True, from physical space there would be no further indication anything is going on, but from astral space it's extremely obvious.

I didn't mention it because you don't have any actions remaining and no opportunity to relay what you sense, but I did assume you would throw the defense on that spell and included them in his resistance roll. (you got 2 hits on your 3 dice btw) On your next action you can try to dispel it if you like. It only has 1 remaining hit to overcome so it shouldn't be too impossible. Just have to overcome her magic and force roll.

I keep looking for information concerning astral Projection and damage.

It really feels like 5e was a sort of errata update to 4e, given the odd gaps in rules.

I can't find anything in particular about wounds and such while projecting. In either the core or street grimoire.

Do I ignore stun damage as my body is essentially already asleep?

In 4e all damage done to an astral body was physical, even stun drain.

Am I buried under wound modifiers?

Well, the book says damage done to one is dealt to the other, so I would assume that you suffer the modifiers that your body currently has.

5e Core Book p313 wrote:A projecting mage can travel around the astral plane at great speeds unimpeded by material objects such as walls, floors, and burly goons (unless they are dual-natured).
Your body is in a coma-like state while your astral body is out in the aether. Your mind and body are still connected, so any damage taken to body or mind is felt by both. Only characters who are full Magicians can astrally project.

Then I'm just unconcious either way then.

I mean I don't want to be, but for the sake of consistency he overflowed stun track.

Well, it would be consistent, yes, but since you have to actually find your body to return to it, being astrally unconscious would also mean you are stuck on the astral plane.

Core Book P314 wrote:When a magician is astrally projecting, her mind has stepped out for the moment. Mental detection and manipulation spells targeting the physical body of an astrally projecting mage simply do not work, although other spells do. Although if you really want to mess up a magician without killing her, you can move her body away from where she left it.
Magicians hate playing hide and seek with their own body. If someone moves your body away from where you expected it to be, you’ll have to search for it. If that happens, make an Assensing + Intuition [Astral] (1 hour) Extended Test. The threshold should be determined by the gamemaster based on how far your body was moved and how well it was hidden.

Personally I think that makes projecting more dangerous than I really want to make it because with your mage unconscious, you can at least grab his body and GTFO. But with his astral form off being unconscious in the astral plane, you leave and not only does he have to go looking for his body when he wakes up because you ran off with it, but he can be killed off while there as well. And since there is no way to be forced back to your body, its not like a friendly mage can rescue you either.

Then there is the issue of if he doesn't wake up before his time on the Astral plane is up as well. Normally it wouldn't be an issue since you would likely recover from at least enough stun to be conscious within an hour, but if you have been projecting for an extended period of time before that and/or you have to go searching for your body on top of that you'll most certainly die while unconscious.

I know I have definitely read somewhere about astral forms surviving past the deaths of their bodies (at least as long as the astral form can survive separated from it), though I can't remember where or what book/edition. So, it makes sense for me to allow you to still function. Obviously if you are there casting and taking drain, that drain is going to be still damaging your body and since your stun track is full, it will be coming in as physical damage so you could end up casting yourself to death. And the wound modifiers would definitely be making most actions difficult. But at least you can fly about and warn the others about stuff or get back to your body to recover.

How about we split the difference and say you can maintain consciousness on a flat charisma+willpower(4) check each time you take damage past your normal damage monitor? That way you can be knocked out, but there is a small chance for a strong willed (and/or lucky) person to survive past their bodies on the astral plane or get back to their body to recover.

At least stim patches no longer mess up your magic in 5e, so I suppose there is that.

I've read it in the fluff of astral forms continuing after death for a bit.

It honestly makes sense... If I'm unaware of my body then stun damage should not really do much to me. Physical Damage disrupts my life force.

I just don't want to take advantage where none is due.

Well, with no one active on the astral, it's not that much of an advantage. I guess you could summon a spirit or something, but you probably wouldn't want to cast one that would risk you any drain. Plus with your wound modifiers, its not like you will be throwing a whole lot of dice at stuff.

Plus I like the image of a mage projecting to warn his team about something and then his body getting shot to shit and he's all like, "Well, I'm dead. You guys need to avenge the hell out of me or I swear I will find a way to haunt you all."