Gilon 3010

Shadowrun game in an alternate, homebrew universe.


    Rebuilding?

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    winkingchef

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    Rebuilding?

    Post by winkingchef on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:45 am

    Sounds like from this threadwe can rebuild before we apply karma.
    Given the changes in the group since we started, I'm thinking to move Sato more fully a face as we will now have 4 total combat characters, 3 adepts between Sun (unarmed), Topor (gunbunny), Tetsu (blades) and Ichigo, a part-time samurai/medic with guns.

    I'd still like Sato to be good at martial arts, but will pivot from being super sneaky to being the full-on social adept that I've never had the chance to play before (I'm usually GM so playtime is few and far between). I'm super excited by all the powers like Commanding Voice, Enthralling Performance, Facial Sculpt, Voice Control and Ventriloquism - I want them all!

    Everyone, let me know if you would like some help and advice. I have played/GM'd a lot of SR in my days and like helping people build mechanics to match their concept.

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    WuJen

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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:24 am

    I'm good for the most part.  I like a decent support role, I just don't want to be a lobotomized vegetable on the curb because I cast 3 spells and am done.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:37 am

    The idea behind Sun is pretty clear by now. If you see any points that would improve within that concept, I'd love to hear them!
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by GameMaster on Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:44 am

    yep, you guys can rework your sheets if there is anything that you missed when you made them. Once everyone has finalized their chars and we've introduced the new players, I have 2 different runs that you guys will be splitting off into
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    winkingchef

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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by winkingchef on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:23 am

    RafV wrote:The idea behind Sun is pretty clear by now. If you see any points that would improve within that concept, I'd love to hear them!

    Feedback on Flavor :
    I like Sun as a character concept. The thick, immovable dwarf is a great trope.
    I'd be interested in more detail on his Performance skill. Another option for the "dwarfiest dwarf" is to switch that to Artisan and be a brewer.
    Gremlins is a great, flavorful negative quality.

    Feedback on Mechanics:
    Atts: A is the right choice for a character like this (though see questions below for point expenditure).

    Initiative really is king in SR combat and it really is important for a combat character to get 2 passes (i.e. roll 11 or higher on INIT). Currently you are 10+d6 so you are OK there unless your Attributes change. If you don't augment htis, I highly recommend saving edge so you can spend 1 Edge to Blitz in critical combats and roll 5d6+10, which is 3 passes on average (avg 27.5). As you see, critical combats are done in 1 or at most 2 rounds.

    Since you have high STR and AGI, Martial arts (from Run and Gun) are interesting, but there is no penalty to wait after gen (Styles cost 7K and give a free maneuver - additional maneuvers are 5K each). 6000 Words on Martial Arts is my favorite guide, but is pretty hefty reading. One interesting option would be MMA Wrestling or Thai Kickboxing. If you are with Sato, he can throw an enemy to the ground, so Pouncing Dragon may come up often (plus you are the ninja-est dwarf ever so you could drop from the ceiling on people).

    One of the best ways to get around the "not enough skill points" problem that many people (especially me) keep running into is to buy a bunch of lvl 1 skills at chargen for 2 Karma each. If you can afford 2 Karma at chargen, Jack of All Trades reduces this to 1.
    lvl 1 skills : Etiquette, Sneaking, Con (consider dropping Performance to 1 so you can buy it with Karma)
    A smattering of social skills (esp. Etiquette) let you tag along with the Face on missions without screwing up.

    Questions
    By my count, you have 27 attribute points. Even with Atts : A, you would only have 24.
    I may be misunderstanding how you spend your starting Karma, but I'd recommend dropping WIL to 5 and the other two points will be much more dear - maybe LOG to 2 and either CHA to 1 (though social skills

    Summary
    I really like him as-is, but a few tweaks on social skills will make him more flexible on social runs.
    I have to run now, but if you have your Karma spend details to fit them in, I can look at it a bit later tonight US PST.
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    RafV

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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:56 am

    Priorities:
    AttributesKarmaMagicMetatypeSkillsResources
    242561 special attribute15/06000





















    SUN DÀSHÔUAdeptDwarfLifestyle: LowINI: 10 + 1D6AR: 16 (Astral: 4)
    PHYS 12STUN 11OVERFLOW 7
    AttributesLimitsSkillsContacts
    BOD7/8Phys: 9ActiveKamogawa Takamura - FixerCON 2, LOY 1
    AGI5/6Mental: 6Close combat (Unarmed)6(+2)Sanji BoroboroCON 1, LOY 3
    REA4/5Social: 6Athletics (Gymnastics) 6(+2)
    STR7/8Perception 2
    WIL6/7Adept PowersPerformance 3
    LOG3/6(Km: -25)Critical Strike (Unarmed)DV +1Knowledge
    INT6/6Killing HandsStreet/
    CHAR2/6(Km: -10)Wall RunningAcademicAnatomy 6
    Light Body 2ProfessionalProfessional Bodyguarding 4
    EDGE2/6Mystic Armor 4AR +4InterestLegendary Martial Artists 4
    MAGIC6Pain Resistance 2Fitness Training 4
    ESSENCE6Combat Sense+2 die on defence testsLanguages
    Perception test before surpriseDesian Common N
    GearQualities
    $100Knucks (STR+1)PPOS
    $100Staff (STR+3)P ACC 6 Reach 2Natural Athlete (Km: -7)+2 dice pool modifier for Running and Gymnastics skill tests
    $1000Armor jacket (AR12)Toughness (Km: -9)+1 dice pool modifier to Body when making Damage Resistance tests
    $700Sony Emperor Commlink (DR 2)NEG
    $2500Fake SIN (Rating 1)Code of Honor (Km: +14)Warrior Code -> Killing someone who is defenseless
    $1600$1600Any time anyone attempts to kill a member of the character's protected list, the character must make a CHAR + WILL (4) Test. A failed roll means the character must immediately put a stop to the violence against the member of their protected group.
    Gremlins 4 (Km: +16)-4 rolled 1s necessary to get a glitch when attempting to use a moderately sophisticated device
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:58 am

    The idea behind "Performance" was that he could pretend to be a traveling monk on his way to do a show somewhere. You know, like what the Shaolin monks do. All in all, it's what he does, besides fighting, anyways. Turns out it's not all that useful, so I can replace it with a more general skill, I guess.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by GameMaster on Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:05 am

    I like it. Performance would be a good skill for rituals (such as the one you guys will be doing to form the magic group). I say keep it Smile
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:11 am

    It would also be good for centering, if he took the metamagic.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by winkingchef on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:16 am

    Don't get me wrong, I also like spending points on flavor - Sato is actually the first character in a long time that didn't have the Inspired quality and at least 4 ranks in Artisan (my decker is a Banksy-like spray paint artist and my dwarf mage is a Hurlg Brewer) or Performance (my troll face is a Trog Rock singer with 8 CHA and confidence issues).  The homebrew skills system in this world makes it pretty tough to squeeze in flavor though.

    I'd recommend removing 1 from REA, dropping WIL to 5 (odd numbers are best for BOD and WIL because no difference in phys/stun track boxes) and moving that point into LOG so you don't have to buy it.  That saves you 25 Karma, which is a SHITLOAD.

    You could then pick up a Martial Art (7 points) with a free technique (you can buy 2 more for 5 points each).
    This Martial Arts Guide is good reading but from a purely mechanical standpoint, I like MMA Wrestling for you with Kick (+1 reach), Pouncing Dragon (a huge +2 DV, great combo with Sato's throw and literally the "death from above" technique from Assassin's Creed) and Clinch (grab ability that scales off of Gymnastics which you are excellent at).  Other good choices would be Karate (more asia-appropriate with Kick, Counterstrike and Sweep) or Ninjitsu (flying kick, counterstrike and Dim Mak...also, dwarf ninjas make me giggle).  Alternatively, because it should flabbergast everyone that there's no Kung-fu, you could work with GM to home-brew your particular brand of Kung-Fu (with all the animal techniques like Pouncing Dragon, Monkey Climb, Constrictor's Crush, Leaping Mantis, Shadow Block, Crushing Jaws, Tricking and Clinch)

    With the remaining 8 Karma, I'd recommend picking up one skill point each in:

    • Sneaking (for tagging along on stealth runs)
    • Etiquette (for tagging along on social runs)
    • Throwing (for chucking grenades)
    • Outdoors (for tracking and other things) (this one is maybe a bit less aligned, but could have resulted from his long travels)
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by GameMaster on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:44 pm

    winkingchef wrote:Don't get me wrong, I also like spending points on flavor - Sato is actually the first character in a long time that didn't have the Inspired quality and at least 4 ranks in Artisan (my decker is a Banksy-like spray paint artist and my dwarf mage is a Hurlg Brewer) or Performance (my troll face is a Trog Rock singer with 8 CHA and confidence issues).  The homebrew skills system in this world makes it pretty tough to squeeze in flavor though.

    Depends on what you do. Rather than taking conjuring, binding, and banishing separately, you just take the one skill and you are done. Rather than having to grab like 6 different matrix skills, you only need to take 2. Yes you get fewer skill points, but most people end up with far more overall skills.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by chougou on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:49 pm

    I would also like any feedback from you guys as to where Chougou can be useful. I am still new to the game and have only ever dabbled in Anarchy before with other similarly clueless people (and then I sent them back in time to make it an Earthdawn game Laughing) so I am still very much learning the ropes.

    Chougou will not be helpful in a fight himself, but he has a few attack drones and much more surveillance gear, so please let me know if there are certain aspects that he would be particularly helpful with. He also has a few weapons if anyone wants to borrow them...and then off course the GMC Bulldog that we can use for transport. Depending on the situation he would like to acquire a bigger fleet of vehicles if they are needed and can pay for themselves of course.

    I am perfectly happy to stay back and help on the periphery where I can, I think that I will be especially useful in surveillance though in the beginning. Please utilize Chougou as a recon agent for now and let him know if he needs to deploy his "friends" in a fight. The two attack drones that I have so far are the Steel Lynx and the Aztechnology Crawlers, both can be equipped with Ingram Smartguns or Colt Governments.

    I also got him a Decker interface in case he can help with any Matrix support as well. Here is the character sheet as of now:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xo98Vuf_yudbKhtVFswyS3mQk4XcK1kKe2QDewvE3Ns/edit?usp=sharing
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:07 pm

    There's at least 3 ways to do a Rigger.

    As Presented, they are Pilots.  Most focus their resources on either vehicles or drones.  You don't have to be good in a fight.  No one might ever even see you, just your van nearby while your voice comes through comms or the drones.

    Either way, your personal lack in various skills is easily overcome with gear.  You don't have to directly control the weapons or vehicles, the Pilot Programs can do that for you, and can be augmented with Autosofts and even specialized tactical systems.  Your Rig gives you bonuses for doing that sort of thing directly, but if you don't have the skills, it's not an insurmountable problem.

    My favorite take on the rigger is more the Hardware Tech expert.  He specializes in an understanding of Electronic Warfare and the physical underpinnings of how systems work.  A well built rigger can walk into someplace with nothing and then take over the on-site security and leave in a corp vehicle carrying half the security drones in the back, with the building's emplaced security measures shooting at eachother.  In 5e they seemed to have neutered Electronic Warfare some, in earlier editions a rigger didn't hack drones, he sniffed their wireless traffic and spoofed commands as if he was the authorized user.  If those commands happened to be an order to reboot and register to this new deck.... well... There you go.  That kind of rigger build relies more on Build/Repair, Electronic Warfare, Electronics, Hardware and a boatload of knowledge skills, rather than high pilot skills and gunnery.

    I'm a big fan of the pre-run Run.  Drones are expendable, sure you want a couple really good ones of your own, but for the most part you just take them out of the environment because they are 'everywhere'.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:09 am

    @GM: What's your opinion on picking a martial art? If you approve, I'll get the PDF required for it (waiting 2 months now for Catalyst to even give feedback to the game shop about the 5E corebook order. Waiting for that to get the actual books, and will have to do with PDFs til then)
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by GameMaster on Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:11 am

    Up to you. Personally I don't think they add too terribly much, just a die or two for very specific situations. The regular unarmed rules seem adequate to me, but then I don't usually make martial artists so someone who does may think otherwise. If you really want to pick one up, they are in the Run & Gun book.

    The short of it is you pay 7 karma and some money & time to learn a martial art. This comes with 1 technique. After that you pay 5 karma and more money & time for each additional technique. Each martial art has around 6 different techniques you can learn. You can learn multiple martial arts.

    I won't list every single technique, but here is a random sampling to give you an idea of what they do:

    CONSTRICTOR’S CRUSH - +1 dv against subdued opponents

    DIM MAK - reduce penalty for called shots to arms and legs by 1

    KIP-UP - Agility + Gymnastics [Physical] (3) Test to get on feet and make an attack (can't move)

    KNUCKLEBREAKER - deal normal damage when doing called shot (disarm) or called shot (blast out of hands)

    ROOTED TREE - +1 to the Physical limit when resisting the Push, Shove, or Sacrificial Move actions.

    There are a crap load of others, but that gives you an idea of what kinds of things they do.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by winkingchef on Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:19 pm

    Highly recommend the martial arts guide I linked above.

    I agree with GM that most techniques aren't really a significant increase in power (but some add utility).  It seemed the purpose was to make unarmed combat more varied and flavorful (instead of "I hit him, here's my 17 dice").  I like the flavor for the Japanese-y setting we have.

    Some interesting ones:
    * Pouncing Dragon : +2 damage value to strikes on enemies below you (prone or death from above)
    * Kick : +1 reach
    * Clinch : grab baddie using Gymnastics (good for low STR)
    * Throw : throw baddie as either reaction from block or from clinch
    * Monkey Climb : allows you to climb at 1m/hit for walls of 5m or less
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:32 pm

    I got wall running, so monkey climb beats its purpose. Pouncing Dragon seems useful for Sun. Clinch... Does it give a better bonus for higher STR, or does it just not matter?
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by GameMaster on Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:48 pm

    Clinch is basically grappling. You get up in their business to negate reach and make firearms harder to use.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:55 pm

    Does it not also allow you to take a specialization for Unarmed Combat (Martial Art) for the 2 extra dice?

    At lower skill levels there's probably a better home for your karma, but at the higher end, when eacy die is costing 12+ points, that seems like a good call.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by chougou on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:11 pm

    WuJen wrote:There's at least 3 ways to do a Rigger.

    As Presented, they are Pilots.  Most focus their resources on either vehicles or drones.  You don't have to be good in a fight.  No one might ever even see you, just your van nearby while your voice comes through comms or the drones.

    Either way, your personal lack in various skills is easily overcome with gear.  You don't have to directly control the weapons or vehicles, the Pilot Programs can do that for you, and can be augmented with Autosofts and even specialized tactical systems.  Your Rig gives you bonuses for doing that sort of thing directly, but if you don't have the skills, it's not an insurmountable problem.

    My favorite take on the rigger is more the Hardware Tech expert.  He specializes in an understanding of Electronic Warfare and the physical underpinnings of how systems work.  A well built rigger can walk into someplace with nothing and then take over the on-site security and leave in a corp vehicle carrying half the security drones in the back, with the building's emplaced security measures shooting at eachother.  In 5e they seemed to have neutered Electronic Warfare some, in earlier editions a rigger didn't hack drones, he sniffed their wireless traffic and spoofed commands as if he was the authorized user.  If those commands happened to be an order to reboot and register to this new deck.... well... There you go.  That kind of rigger build relies more on Build/Repair, Electronic Warfare, Electronics, Hardware and a boatload of knowledge skills, rather than high pilot skills and gunnery.

    I'm a big fan of the pre-run Run.  Drones are expendable, sure you want a couple really good ones of your own, but for the most part you just take them out of the environment because they are 'everywhere'.

    Cool, that's the same kind of impression that I had for what Chougou could become. I'll have to get my feet wetter before I can really grasp the theory and tactics for him, but it has been fun so far. Smile
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:52 pm

    Dig into the rules for what you can do with  Electronic Warfare, this is jamming and spoofing signals to interfere with remote operation.

    You want to know that stuff, because it can happen to you.  This is also how you deal with things like when your drones went into the sewers and lost contact until they got back out.

    Being decent at hacking can help you too, or coordinate with Sam so that he hacks enemy drones and passes them to you.  Teamwork is fun.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by chougou on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:11 pm

    Yeah I have a decent deck that I can help with those things with but all the electronic jamming systems appear to be forbidden class...I'll have to look into getting one of those someday... Very Happy
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by WuJen on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:35 pm

    It's not just about the equipment.

    You can use practically anything wireless as a jammer with the Electronic Warfare skill.  There are specific actions it allows you to take to interfere with enemy remote systems as well.  Tracking down this hacker may give that skill a bit of a workout on its own, as you are not limited to tracking him through the matrix, If he is interacting with you, you can find his signal traffick and trace him that way.

    Similarly if you find yourself under fire from, for instance, a chameleon coated blimp drone outfitted with a suppressed hunting rifle and you can't see it... its possible to sniff for the control signal and find it that way, even if it's out of easy matrix perception range.

    Electronic Warfare is an important part of your skill set.  Arguably more so than Piloting or Gunnery.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by chougou on Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:30 pm

    Hmmm...I think I have another skill group that I need to add. Let me ask in my character creation section because I think I am lacking a skill slot that I can still fill.
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    Re: Rebuilding?

    Post by RafV on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:22 am

    winkingchef wrote:Don't get me wrong, I also like spending points on flavor - Sato is actually the first character in a long time that didn't have the Inspired quality and at least 4 ranks in Artisan (my decker is a Banksy-like spray paint artist and my dwarf mage is a Hurlg Brewer) or Performance (my troll face is a Trog Rock singer with 8 CHA and confidence issues).  The homebrew skills system in this world makes it pretty tough to squeeze in flavor though.

    I'd recommend removing 1 from REA, dropping WIL to 5 (odd numbers are best for BOD and WIL because no difference in phys/stun track boxes) and moving that point into LOG so you don't have to buy it.  That saves you 25 Karma, which is a SHITLOAD.

    You could then pick up a Martial Art (7 points) with a free technique (you can buy 2 more for 5 points each).
    This Martial Arts Guide is good reading but from a purely mechanical standpoint, I like MMA Wrestling for you with Kick (+1 reach), Pouncing Dragon (a huge +2 DV, great combo with Sato's throw and literally the "death from above" technique from Assassin's Creed) and Clinch (grab ability that scales off of Gymnastics which you are excellent at).  Other good choices would be Karate (more asia-appropriate with Kick, Counterstrike and Sweep) or Ninjitsu (flying kick, counterstrike and Dim Mak...also, dwarf ninjas make me giggle).  Alternatively, because it should flabbergast everyone that there's no Kung-fu, you could work with GM to home-brew your particular brand of Kung-Fu (with all the animal techniques like Pouncing Dragon, Monkey Climb, Constrictor's Crush, Leaping Mantis, Shadow Block, Crushing Jaws, Tricking and Clinch)

    With the remaining 8 Karma, I'd recommend picking up one skill point each in:

    • Sneaking (for tagging along on stealth runs)
    • Etiquette (for tagging along on social runs)
    • Throwing (for chucking grenades)
    • Outdoors (for tracking and other things) (this one is maybe a bit less aligned, but could have resulted from his long travels)

    I'm not gonna remove anything from REA, cause that would affect my initiative. Maybe I can take that point out of AGI? What's that attribute used for, anyways?

    I can take away Natural Athlete and say he's an athlete due to the training at the monastery. That frees up 7 karma, which probably is too costly for 2 extra dice in running and gymnastics checks, seeing the dice pool Sun has for those already. Gymnastics would be 13 dice (Skill 8 + 5 AGI). Running would be a dice pool of 13 too (Skill 6 + 7 STR). With a physical limit of 9, bringing those pools up to 15 doesn't make any difference anymore, so 7 karma may be a bit too expensive.

    Switching 1 point of WIL to LOG to free up 15 karma + 7 karma from Natural Athlete would result in 22 karma, without any loss in initiative.

    Got the Run & Gun PDF now. Still waiting for Catalyst to send the core rulebooks to the gameshop I ordered them at -- 2 months ago -- before I get other books in hard copy as well. Got some time now, so let's see...

    The martial arts list has the most weird-ass obscure shit in it, yet the most practiced and well-known ones are lacking: kungfu and judo. Hell, considering how they split certain arts up into sub-arts (eg. wrestling, boxing, ... ) they could split kungfu up into at least 3 (internal, external, sanda, or wushu, wing chun, sanda). That aside... Let's see what they offer.

    Ok, each martial art seems to have 6 techniques. With the GM's permission, let's make kungfu, following the internal, external and sanda divisions!

    Internal

    • Bending of the reed
    • Chin Na
    • Karmic Response
    • Rooted tree
    • Rolling Clouds
    • Yielding Force


    External

    • Crushing Jaws
    • Hammerfist
    • Oaken Stance
    • Sweep
    • Kip-up
    • Pouncing Dragon


    Sanda

    • Kick attack
    • Opposing Force
    • Throw Person
    • Ti Khao
    • Clinch
    • Counterstrike


    PS: In case you guys don't know Sanda, it's also called Sanshou, and is a sort of kickboxing with knee attacks and throws. Got a lovely little video that demonstrates clearly what it's about, in case a visual explanation is required.

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