Gilon 3010

Shadowrun game in an alternate, homebrew universe.


    Initiation !?!

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    Torpor

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    Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:02 am

    Does initiation give you a discount if you are in a group? And if so can we form our own group, and how many of us do we need to start the group.

    Also does anybody have any cool ideas for a name of the initiation group, and our running group. Should we combine the name for both or have two separate names?

    Thoughts and ideas?
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:08 am

    Probably, but tbh I have never had a group form a magic group so I need to look up the rules for it. So far I have only found the process involved in forming the group in 5e(which seems to imply it is only for magicians, not adepts, but I may have just not read enough yet). I am still trying to find the benefits of forming a group. It does cost you karma to form the group, so I am going to assume that even if it does make initiation cheaper in the long run, when you count the karma costs to start the group, it is probably more expensive for your first grade at least.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by winkingchef on Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:18 am

    Depending on cost, I'd be up for this.

    I like this sort of thing from an RP perspective, but I'm struggling with skills on the rebuild to be more of a social infiltrator Face. Face/Infiltrators need a lot of stuff (3 social skills, sleight of hand, stealth and then something for combat) and even 30pts for prio A doesn't go very far.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:53 am

    Ooo drek !

    I did more snooping and followed the same threads as the boss.
    Even if we consider adepts magicians as RAI not RAW they intended adepts to be counted, so we count adepts.  Now the main person has to spend 5 karma to learn the ritual on top of the 5 karma everyone spends to join.  So assuming Wujen or someone else says sure I'll do it.
    Now for us (the basic/core members) the 5 karma would break even in cost at initiate grade 3.
    That's 12 15 18 karma to get to where next level we save a point or two.  That's 45 karma if you do nothing but initiate.

    Plus or minus any dm house rulings.

    Did i get that right so far?
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:04 pm

    As far as I can tell, someone needs to learn the group bond ritual (which will cost whoever learns it 5 karma, plus the money and time to learn the ritual). Then everyone who wants to be a part of the group has to participate in that ritual and spend 5 karma for that. Participants don't need to know the ritual, just the main person casting it, but I think everyone needs to be able to do ritual casting, which adepts don't usually do, but I might be mistaken here.

    Anyway, assuming the group gets formed somehow, you have spent 5-10 karma for a 10% discount on initiation. Base cost is 10+grade x 3. So you get 1 karma off the first grade (13), 2 off the second through 5th grades(16, 19, 21,24), 3 off of grade 6. So assuming you weren't the person who learned the ritual you break even with grade 3 and then save on karma after that. If you are the one who invested in learning the ritual, you are still down 1 karma at grade 5 (where you have saved 9 karma at the cost of 10.


    That all sounds super dumb to me, so I will probably house rule it somehow. I'll decide on the specifics and get back to you all, then include it in the magic house rules section later.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:33 pm

    Either way, we can still initiate for 13 karma solo, right?
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:23 pm

    yep. You can initiate for 13 karma. Less if you do an ordeal. It takes a long time to do though. Involves an Arcana + Intuition [Astral] (initiate grade, 1 month) Extended Test. I grouped arcana under enchanting. Not likely you would have invested in either arcana or enchanting (which is useful for people who want to make foci), so I'll allow you to default intuition (even though you can't usually default the skill) for this.

    You only need a number of hits equal to your grade to succeed, so its not like defaulting is a super big deal until you get to the much higher grades. Just means you will take longer. If you are willing to perform an ordeal for it, I would probably house rule that people without arcana get to double their intuition for the extended check.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:53 pm

    Awesome. Also i assume because arcana is under magical skills you cannot get a skillsoft for it? And if no skillsoft could i eventually purchase the arcana skill? Yes/no to either/both
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:20 pm

    right, no skillsoft, but yes you can purchase it. It is a specialization of enchantment, which could potentially be useful for you for things like qi foci (which give you extra adept powers), or possibly a weapon focus if you plan on doing any kind of melee. Centering foci are also a thing adepts do.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:59 pm

    Adepts have always been able to join magical groups in every edition.  I've not read too far into it for 5e, as I have a couple of largish sinkholes for Karma already, and there's not much but Invocation for conjuring, which is where I'm kinda leaning as a specialization for my magic.

    I think I can do ritual magic, Didn't GM bundle it under Spellcasting?  If so I'm fair at it.  My Magical Skills are Spellcasting, Conjuring, Assensing and Astral Combat.  I'm not sure what that translates to in the campaign at this moment, but I think I'm lacking things like Artificing and Alchemy.

    However, other Karma uses:

    Tatsuo needs some more Force.  Preferably I'd like to bring her to force 5 or 6, but that's gonna be a long time coming.

    I should probably pick up Alchemy and the Formula for at least Improved Reflexes, and possibly a few others.

    I should also pick up that ability that lets a caster sustain one Manipulation spell without penalty.  The one for illusion could come in handy as well.  I think it's kind of expensive after chargen though.


    It should be noted that things like Arcana and other magical skills are available to anyone, not just the magically active.  They function as Knowledge skills, but some of the world's most advanced spell work is done by people with a non active arcana skill.  So while an adept might not get much use out of Arcana directly (even I don't, it's mostly for understanding new spell formula), they *can* get it.

    I'm fine with starting such a group.  As noted, I don't exactly have a lot of karma lying around unused---however, I did suggest that our payments be pooled and a portion set aside for group expenses.  Converting some of our cash to karma and using it to form an initiate group helps all of us, though admittedly less so for Sam and Chougou.  I'm sure we will talk when it comes time to buy bigger drones or upgrades for a cyberdeck.

    On that note, Ordeals do make things a bit cheaper... and over half the group benefits.  For some magical societies the defeat of the Jiangshi could qualify, and if not I'm sure another appropriately difficult ordeal could found for the group to undertake together.  For that matter I've already completed at least one myself, as Conjuring an Ally Spirit can also be an Ordeal.  Null Sheen, Chummers!  Ordeals are only soul wrecking endeavors, we got this.

    Making your own group has few benefits aside from less overhead on the costs for joining and maintaining the relationship.  The benefits are a whole buffet of access to teachers, libraries, foci, etc... that you pretty much don't get with your own small group.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 pm

    As a secondary consideration, having gone over to the skill sticky..

    I'd strongly suggest taking Arcana out of your Enchanting skill.  It's used for all magical disciplines, not just the creation of foci, but also spells and spirit formulas.

    If you wanted to go for a more generalist skill, Arcana could go better with Assensing and Astral Combat as more of a general knowledge and use of magic. Specializations would be Formuas, Assensing and Astral Combat.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:12 pm

    I grouped arcana into enchanting because it is primarily used for creating things and I basically treat the enchanting skill as the magical build/repair skill. Creating foci and their formula, creating spell formula, creating spirit formula, etc. are all arcana. The only single check that doesn't involve making something is specifically with initiation, and I am pretty sure I am going to be altering the initiation rules anyway once I have had time to thoroughly think them out because there are some silly things there. Normally arcana isn't grouped with anything. It's just it's own weird magic skill.

    You guys don't have enough karma for initiation yet, so I'll figure out a better system for how a group works to help with initiation. I have some ideas, just need to flesh them out nicely. If you guys have reasonable ideas for how it should work, feel free to make some suggestions. No promises that I use them, but they could influence what I finally end up with.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:14 pm

    The primary use for arcana was learning new spells when you purchased a formula, I thought
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:16 pm

    no, you use whatever skill is appropriate for what you are learning. so spellcasting for a spell, ritual casting for a ritual, alchemy for a preparation.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:19 pm

    If you have a teacher, they do an instruction test, and each hit is an extra die on your test.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:53 pm

    So with alp the bonuses available. If we had a group plus ordeal and the other thing, we could save max 3 karma on our first level. Except if we joined a group is 5 more.
    So maybe initiate once or twice then create the group so it's more efficiant, and we can also have a little time to work on other things before?
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:07 pm

    If you are going to form a group, it is best to initiate within it from the first grade. There are upfront karma costs that will make it more expensive at first, but you have to do those upfront costs at some point anyway, so you might as well start saving from the beginning rather than later where you have already wasted some of that karma
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by RafV on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:14 pm

    Man, that almost sounds like a cult Very Happy Or what they do to newcomers in frats.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:59 pm

    there are similarities...
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:04 pm

    Alright, for now here is what I am planning for initiation and magic groups. Some is taken straight from the books, some I have altered slightly. Mostly I changed some checks and made it so that schooling and magical groups are not cumulative with each other, but instead give a 20% discount each. You just pay money for school while you pay karma and effort for a magical group. It is kind of silly to go to school and join a magic group at the same time anyway. Anyway, this isn't finalized, but I think it is a pretty good start.

    Initiation and Magical Groups

    Sooner or later, most awakened want to push the limits of their skills beyond what they are currently capable of. This is done through initiation. The time it takes to complete initiation is determined by an Magic + Intuition [Astral] (initiate grade, 1 month) Extended Test. What one actually does during this time depends on the tradition of the awakened. A hermetic may spend time researching a thesis, a shinto may spend time building relationships with spirits and an adept martial artist might spend time practicing their skills in the wilderness. The exact nature of how this time should be spent should be discussed between the GM and the player.
    Once you have completed the amount of preparation time required, then you must spend karma. After you’ve finished your preparations, spend the appropriate Karma and you’ve got yourself a shiny new initiative grade and all of its benefits.
    Your initiate grade can never exceed your Magic attribute. If your Magic is reduced below your initiate grade, you lose an initiate grade right along with it.
    It is possible to lower the costs of initiation by joining a magic group, attending a magical school, or performing an ordeal. The base cost of initiation is 10+(Grade x 3). If an ordeal is performed, the cost is reduced by 10%. If initiation is performed through a magical group or with the aid of schooling, the cost is reduced by 20%. This leads to a maximum combined discount of 30%.

    Schooling
    Someone looking to initiate can join a school to aid them. The cost is 10,000 nuyen for a 5 week course, which is not included in the time required to actually initiate. Once the course is completed, the cost of initiation is reduced by 20%.

    Magical Groups

    Sometimes awakened like to form groups to aid each other in initiation as well as other pursuits. To do this, the members of the group must perform a group bond ritual. To do this the group needs a few things:
    1) a magical lodge to perform the ritual (This lodge must be of a force equal to or greater than any initiate grates the members plan on gaining the group benefit from)
    2) a copy of the ritual itself (this can be picked up at any talismonger shop for 2,000 nuyen.
    3) someone needs to learn the ritual (this normally is a spellcaster, but it can possibly be an adept, see adepts and rituals below. In any case, it takes the normal 5 karma and time to learn, though a group can help split up this karma cost by paying 2,000 nuyen per point of karma so the loss is not all up to the leader of the ritual)
    4) The group must have at least 3 members.

    Assuming you have all of the above, your magic group is ready to be formed through the group bond ritual! The ritual and it's details are outlined on pages 129-131 of Street Grimoire. The summary of it is you are casting a force 12 ritual whose force is lowered as your group makes more rules. The force goes up if the members are of different traditions or members of other groups. If you succeed in the ritual without killing yourselves, each member joining the group has to spend 5 karma.
    Once the group has been formed, there are a few effects (other than the initiation discount):
    - the bond can be seen astrally by any other members of the group
    - members can sense any member who has violated individual strictures (though not how or which ones) with a simple Assensing + Intuition [Mental] (3) Test (assuming they can astrally perceive)
    - members of the group cannot bond to another group whose strictures conflict with one another
    - A member may permanently sever his bond to the group by successfully performing a ritual similar to the one used to join the group and paying 1 Karma.

    Adepts and Rituals
    There are various rituals available to the adept, where the adept’s relevant skill or attribute fulfills the role of ritual spellcasting (steps 4 and 5). Examples: Animal Handling for Attune Animal and Imbue; Armorer, Artisan, or Automotive Mechanic for Imbue Item. The gamemaster has final say on what skill the adept can use in substitution of Ritual Spellcasting. There is a fairly extensive example of tattooing on page 131 of Street Grimoire, but other appropriate skills can be used as well.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by Torpor on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:24 pm

    So technically if we have 5 karma, lodge (3), 10k, and 3 of us we could start the group. Then initiate when we have the points to initiate after?
    Or do we have to firm it and do first level init at the same time?
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:28 pm

    Some groups, especially in the heremetic style, actually are schools.  Seriously, a Heremetic school would look like Hogwarts.  Basically you can join as a member of the body academic, or you can just pay for tutelage.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:36 pm

    GameMaster wrote:no, you use whatever skill is appropriate for what you are learning. so spellcasting for a spell, ritual casting for a ritual, alchemy for a preparation.

    Now that I'm sitting with the books, that's weird.  The skill description says you have to have it to understand purchased formula, but there's nothing about it in learning a spell.  They basically made the skill useless.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by GameMaster on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:49 pm

    Torpor wrote:So technically if we have 5 karma, lodge (3), 10k, and 3 of us we could start the group.  Then initiate when we have the points to initiate after?
    Or do we have to firm it and do first level init at the same time?

    Oh you don't have to initiate when you form a group. The karma discount is just the primary benefit of it. You could stay completely uninitiated forever if you really wanted. But yes. With those resources you can start the group. You are all pretty wildly different in ways of magic, but I will just say if you have a shinto mentor spirit, you are shinto to keep the mods from going too crazy. So assuming Wujen handles the ritual, the starting force is 14 prior to any rules you guys make up.
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    Re: Initiation !?!

    Post by WuJen on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:51 pm

    Rule 1: WuJen is *always* right.

    Rule 2: Should events prove WuJen to be wrong, see rule 1.

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